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Post by joseph on Feb 24, 2011 22:56:49 GMT -5
I look at heirlooms in the same way I look at religion. Both seem to attract ecstatic fans which I find unpleasant so I don't associate with religion nor with heirlooms.
I grew up Mormon, and the Mormons place a huge emphasis on pedigrees and family history. So it is common for someone to adamantly proclaim that they have traced their ancestry back to Adam, or to King Cornelius... I just sigh because the human illegitimacy rate is something like 15%, and it doesn't take very many generations for the pedigree to get totally messed up. And that's not taking into account clerical errors, and misinterpretations of records, and two people with the same name, etc... I figure it's pretty much futile to try to trace a persons genealogy.
And the stories which are told about my ancestors are outlandish... For example, one of my ancestors walked 1800 miles barefoot from Winter Quarters Nebraska to Salt Lake City Utah. Yahoo Maps puts the mileage at 730 miles, and my Amish neighbors walk barefoot everywhere they go in mild weather.
The tomato illegitimacy rate (cross-pollination) is lower, maybe around 5%, but in 50 or 100 years it's bound to add up. I suspect clerical errors are even higher than that.
I don't mind if a tomato carries some name or other today. It makes trading them easier. And it's nice if a Brandywine from Burpee's grows like a Brandywine from Gurney's. But I don't have any expectation that the "Big Red" tomato that my great grandfather grew carries the same genetics as the one I'm growing today.
I might include a putative heirloom in my land-races from time to time, but I don't care about it's story, or it's genetics, I'm just looking to add some variety to my tomato patch. If it grows well it may become part of my land-race and lose it's identity. If it doesn't grow well I may never know and it's just another forgettable tomato.
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Post by willyswoodpile on Feb 24, 2011 23:24:39 GMT -5
How about the immigration of large numbers of peoples from Europe?
For instance: German immigrants from the early 1700's, and the 1840's & 50's.
Or the Irish immigration [of potato famine fame] in the mid-1840's and 1850's +
If so be that the tomato was taken from South America to Europe in the 1500's, and they were "widely eaten" in Great Britain by the mid-eighteen hundreds, would it not be safe to assume that many seeds were brought to the U.S. by immigrants during that span?
So why do we not have tomatoes mentioned in our family histories? I have German immigrants from both the Palatine Immigration and the Mid-1800's immigration and never have seen any mention of tomato-speak in my extensive research.
In U.S. History where does "tomato-talk" of a specific nature come into existence: Rather than tomato-talk in general?
I like what hillbilly has done, and that is challenge the "status quo"; upset revisionist history, which moves one to investigate for himself and arm oneself with foundational truth ammunition: At least to the best of his or her ability.
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grunt
Breeder in Training
Posts: 160
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Post by grunt on Feb 25, 2011 0:39:37 GMT -5
Steve: First, realize that none of this is arguing with you.
I agree with some of what you say, and disagree with some = which just means you are presenting a pretty well balanced dissertation of what you believe.
I would disagree some with your stance that mutations are rare = I have two examples of mutations in my own garden, and they simply cannot be classed as an error in labeling or crossed seed, as they engaged only a single branch on a plant. Rita's Black was originally a single branch on a Belgian Farmers Beefsteak (red) the first year I grew them out = I have seed from a branch full of Japanese Black Trifele that were red fruited. The Rita's Black has stayed black from the start (6 grow outs). The red expressed JBT has thrown both red and black, likely because they were crossed in the initial branch = it is a PL, and I had no idea they were going to be different until they ripened.
I also agree that most mutations are self limiting, because they are not beneficial to reproduction. Most would not even be noticed, if they were not happening in some ones garden.
My only gripe with hybrids in general is that you can not save seed from them to get a duplication of results. I prefer OP varieties simply because I can save seed from them, and know that, barring an accidental cross, I can expect to get next year what I got this year. If it turns out to be the case that I get an accidental cross, I try doing a fairly large grow out the year after the cross expresses itself (the F1), to see what gems might be hidden in the F2's. If I see nothing I want to chase, I still hold onto the seed, in case someone else expresses interest in the future.
I do have a few beefs with some of the commercial hybrids that were developed to satisfy the grocery store chains = you know the ones, uniform 2 1/2" red, thick skinned, unbruiseable, minimally flavored things that look a lot like tomatoes: but I can also see that some of those very traits are a boon to all of the breeders out there, as something to perhaps try and snag into their own crosses.
Is there drift in the "heirloom" varieties? = most likely there is, unless there has been a constant refreshment from the original seed source, such as what Kew Gardens in the UK does.
Does it matter? = not likely. The genetics of the variety still exist, although perhaps not all in one expression any more, but spread through all of the variations that have been selected in various and sundry locations. It's one of the reasons I trade seeds so widely, and will take trades of the same variety from several people = I can feel that I have all of the dna that was expressed in the original release of the variety, if I can get a wide enough sampling of the present expressions.
What are the best traits in a tomato, or what is the "best" tomato to grow = different from region to region and even garden to garden. Have I ever had a "perfect" tomato? = not yet, nor am I likely to. I have had some exquisite tasting ones, extremely prolific ones, ones that are perfect eye candy, or tremendous canners, and on through the list of tomato traits that go to making the "perfect" tomato = but not all in one variety.
I'll keep looking for it, but I don't expect to find it = it's like gold fever = it's not finding the mother lode that is important, it's the search.
I know enough to know that I can not verify or deny the origins of any variety that I don't invent myself, and enough to know that they have been hyped as long as they have been sold, which is as far back as they have been eaten, and I don't mean just by western civilization. Trying to figure out which trait was first discovered and when, is like arguing the priority of the chicken or the egg = was you there Charlie?
It is good that we can discuss these things without getting into rants or attacks.
The only thing I know for certain, is that I love to grow and eat these luscious things, in as many variations as I possibly can. Even the spitters are worth the trouble of growing, if for no other reason than they demonstrate the miracle of life in a seed.
Cheers
Dan
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Post by chucker on Feb 25, 2011 0:43:47 GMT -5
Actually I don't think hybridizing, a.k.a. crossing, crossbreeding, breeding doesn't go back thousands of years. Breeding certainly took place before, but It wasn't until the work of Gregor Mendel was accepted in the early part of the 20th Century that there was even a clear idea about what was going on when two plants are crossed. Although there was some breeding going on in the 1930's, deliberate plant breeding did not get fully underway until after World War 2. That should be easily verifiable to anyone that takes the time to look. Even Livingston said, erroneously I might add, "I have no confidence in hybridizing or crossing as a method of securing new varieties." Which means that pretty much anything that came along prior to the acceptance of Mendelian genetics in the 1920's was acquired by chance crosses that were discovered as anomalies in the field and then selected during growouts. As an interesting read, here's a link to an article in The Gardner's Chronicle from 1901. It's not about tomatoes, but the article debates "alleged hybrids" from 1799. They seem to dismiss the hybrid of 1799 as pure guesswork. You can draw your own conclusions from the article, but in my mind, people were just as smart in 1901 as we are now, and probably were just as smart in 1799, and they knew what hybrids were. The Gardners Chronicle |
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Post by kevin1962 on Feb 25, 2011 14:46:55 GMT -5
Please forgive my ignorance, but it would seem that most growers of tomatoes fall in to one of three categories. We're either growing hybrids, growing heirlooms, or crossing heirlooms, to create a new tomato, or in other words, a hybrid. I should think the only difference between commercial and private growers is a matter of priorities and/or needs in the marketplace/home. When I begin my projects this year, I shall do so because I have a creative nature, (I call it a "god complex" ;D) that makes tomato breeding very interesting and fun for me. I'm a bit of a cynic when it comes to the stories behind some tomatoes, because I know enough about genetics to realize, as Hillbillypie pointed out, that some things are simply not genetically possible. Having dealt with a similar situation involving heritage breeds of poultry, I was amazed at the number of people who would purport to have hatched out a "sport", simply because they could not account for it's existence. "Sports", in poultry are rare, but you could not convince some of them that what they actually had was nothing more than a bird who's phenotype had been hidden beneath years of shoddy breeding practices. Lord could I tell you some stories. I would submit to you that this is possibly the case for some breeders of tomatoes as well, (present company excluded,  At any rate, I love this thread and have enjoyed the exchanges. Lots of fun. K |
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tomato
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 58
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Post by tomato on Feb 25, 2011 20:50:16 GMT -5
Steve, Mule has already posted enough information to call into question at least part of what you have said. If you look at the study of black tomatoes, there were 5 identified mutations to the gf gene. From a statistical perspective, it is highly unlikely that 5 variants could have occurred within the last 50 or 60 years. Said another way, if there were 5 mutations in the last 50 years, then there must have been several more similar mutations in the preceding hundreds of years that tomatoes have been cultivated. You can slice this any way you choose, but from a genetic perspective, it is extremely probable that some of the black varieties have been around since the 1800's.
Now lets deal with the "made up" histories that many heirlooms carry. Obviously there have been a ton of these. If you look back at the tomatoes grown in the 1880's you will find one uniform characteristic. They were SMALL, as in max 6 ounces or thereabouts. Livingston, for example, made a huge deal out of finding and propagating some decent sized tomatoes. What does this give us to work with? Well for starters, any tomato that weighs a pound and is purported to date to the 1850's should be viewed with a VERY cynical eye. For perspective, you might look at the history of Ponderosa and Winsall.
As for how many tomato plants are grown world wide, you can find that on the tomato wiki from the number of pounds of tomatoes grown yearly. 130,000,000 tons of tomatoes are grown worldwide per government figures. I'm not going to go through the definition of a US ton or a British ton, I'll just use 2000 pounds for conversion and I won't argue whether or not China pads their figures. That gives us 260,000,000,000 pounds of tomatoes (that is 260 BILLION pounds) grown worldwide which does not take into account the billions of pounds grown in home gardens every year. If you will allow that an average plant produces 5 pounds of tomatoes, then you are looking at 52,000,000,000 tomato plants, again not counting home gardeners or most market growers. I would suggest that at least another 10 billion plants are grown that are not measured in the production figures. That would get us about 60 Billion tomato plants grown worldwide every year.
I don't critique your knowledge of genetics, but in this case, based on genetics, I don't entirely accept your argument that seems to say all black tomatoes are recent inventions. On the other hand, I do see reason to believe that many, if not most, heirloom tomatoes have made up histories.
DarJones
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Post by joseph on Feb 26, 2011 3:04:40 GMT -5
it would seem that most growers of tomatoes fall in to one of three categories. We're either growing hybrids, growing heirlooms, or crossing heirlooms, to create a new tomato, or in other words, a hybrid. I just grow tomatoes... I don't have a clue if they are hybrids, or if they are heirlooms, or if they are open pollinated, or if they are old, or modern, or stable. I don't do any tomato breeding. I only do selecting. I plant hundreds of tomato plants each year and save the seeds from a few dozen of the ones that I like and that do well in my garden. I don't have any way of identifying them, or of knowing what their story is. Many of the varieties I receive have one word or two on the label, sometimes in a foreign language that I don't understand enough to even type the characters into a google search. Sometimes I receive packets of tomato seeds that don't have any label at all, but I recognize them as tomato seeds so I plant them. One fellow sent me 3 seeds each of 27 varieties all jumbled together without even a list of what they were. I was thrilled. I'll plant them and see if there is anything I like. |
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Post by GunnarSK on Feb 26, 2011 7:48:03 GMT -5
Darrell Jones:
"It also helps to remember that most mutations fall into two categories. The first is mutations in genetic dead spots aka non-functioning dna. The second is mutations serious enough to disrupt critical cellular machinery, therefore the mutation does not propagate. After those two categories, a very very tiny number of mutations would in some way be useful for the plants' survival. This includes mutations for new traits that alien beings like us humans find desirable in tomatoes so we save seed and propagate them.
DarJones"
As Darrell Jones and several others (eg. Hillbillypie, surf4grrl and mule) have written, there is nothing wrong with OP or "heirloom" tomatoes in general, but the stories ("history") of many particular varieties may be questioned. So we're supposed to choose the best tasting, and those have often been selected for amateurs (and sometimes by amateurs).
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paulf
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 70
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Post by paulf on Feb 26, 2011 12:48:40 GMT -5
Yup! That's why the term of choice now tends to be Open Pollinated rather than heirloom. Lots more folks are getting into breeding their own crosses and then stabilizing them. One term used for that process is "created heirloom". As the hobbyists rather than subsistence gardeners get involved this category has blurred the lines available more quickly and the internet forums have popularized the changes even more quickly.
The question of exactly is a heirloom has been up for discussion for many years. All I know is my personal taste has been for tomatoes that taste good to me. The stories behind many varieties are cool no matter the published documentation.
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stratcat
Tomato Fanatic
Tha Green Bomb!
Neighborhood Pariah
Posts: 422
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Post by stratcat on Feb 26, 2011 17:47:01 GMT -5
As for Brandywine-In 2002, I volunteered on Saturdays all season at a Farm Market in the next county. I took along some of my tomatoes to display. When I showed and named Brandywine to an Amish girl, she said "We grow those."
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paulf
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 70
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Post by paulf on Feb 28, 2011 11:16:36 GMT -5
I used to live in south-central Iowa where there are several Amish communities. The mothers of several families would load up the buggy with the black hatted young boys and the gingham dressed young girls, drive the horse and buggy to a busy highway intersection, unhitch the horse and let the horse begin to mow the ditch. The whole family would erect a canvass lean-to sunshade. They would then cover three or four folding tables with baked goods and vegetables.
Early in my "heirloom" growing days I was all excited about finding an undiscovered variety. I figured I could become famous in our little tomato growing world in the young days of tomato growing forums. When I asked if the tomatoes had been in the family for a long time, the answer I received was," Oh, yes, we have grown this tomato for many years." Then I asked if it had a name and a history. I was told it was just called a red tomato. So, of course, I wanted its history and I was told, "Well, we go to the hardware store in Humeston and buy whatever George, the owner has left over for a real good price and we put them in the garden so I can sell what we don't can for ourselves."
Old George sells boys, girls, betters and bests and not much else. So ended my quest for a long lost heirloom from the Amish in Iowa.
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Post by reubent on Feb 28, 2011 11:51:34 GMT -5
the "heirloom" term I don't remember seeing until quite recently, The seed catalogs I was acquainted with 30-40 years ago only had the standard variety's, the boys and girls seemed quite popular. I knew there must be a lot more somewhere but no idea where to look for them. Then all the "new" old variety's started showing up here and there. Then the "heirloom" term started being used. (I thought that only applied to grandma's household keepsakes etc, not plants that are subject to change)
But anyway, I suppose we shouldn't be too concerned where they came from, just pick what we like and enjoy them. I'll pick what looks good to me and then do my fooling around with fertility and see what I can do with the flavor that way.
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hillbillypie
Breeder in Training
Tomato Growing Nutjob
Posts: 210
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Post by hillbillypie on Mar 2, 2011 13:08:37 GMT -5
The only thing I know for certain, is that I love to grow and eat these luscious things, in as many variations as I possibly can. Even the spitters are worth the trouble of growing, if for no other reason than they demonstrate the miracle of life in a seed. Cheers Dan Amen to that! And that is what brings us here together. |
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hillbillypie
Breeder in Training
Tomato Growing Nutjob
Posts: 210
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Post by hillbillypie on Mar 2, 2011 13:27:47 GMT -5
The first draft of this was mostly in the form of questions because I wanted discussion. I ended up making many statements, but if you look at the post I made you will still notice a large number of question marks. I've said it before, I don't know that much about tomato genetics. I am trying to learn as much as possible, as quickly as possible. When people like Tomato, Grunt, and Mule inform me what they have experienced, then I believe them. I respect their opinion and their observations.
Being able to discuss something in a civil manner without the fear of being banned or belittled with personal attacks is what makes this forum enjoyable. It's ok to disagree with me and I hope I can do the same with you and we can still remain online TTG friends. I won't ever infer a disagreement as a personal attack.
Perhaps I should have stated: based on the scientific evidence we currently have, it is unlikely that "black" tomatoes were in cultivation before the 50's. I'm not so small minded that I won't concede that a mutation could have occurred prior to the mutation that gave us the gf gene in the 1950's that we currently know.
My comments about Cherokee Purple and the gf gene were only a PART of my thread. This might have made the most "noise" and received the most attention but please take in the ENTIRE posting. Without reading the post as a whole you can not address the original questions in the first paragraph.
As for varieties prior to 1950, I currently have about 100 or so in my seed stock that were known prior to 1950. It appears that I am still being misunderstood. There are lots of known commercially offered varieties that are still in existence that are older than 1950. As stated earlier, I think a lot of the tomatoes that are claimed to be unique to someone (family heirlooms) are simply KNOWN cultivars that have been renamed. Almost two decades ago I went on a quest to find quite a number of varieties that fell out of favor or were released by seed companies that are no longer around. I even germinated some seeds from a package I found at an antique store. I love growing some of this older stuff.
I also have this to say. I have never been one to have a hidden agenda. I'm an honest person and always very open about my opinions and easily speak my mind. If you want to know something about me or what I think, all you have to do is ask. I have never had a problem expressing myself and you will know exactly where I stand. I say this because there seems to be some question as to my motivation in writing this post. I will say it again. This is not about any individual. This is about the outlandish claims I see in seed catalogs and online growers. This is also about the rampant hypocrisy I see when it comes to claims about a tomatoes origin. It is about the ridiculous theories about a tomatoes heritage or parentage that gets concocted when something does not grow into what they thought they were planting. I am simply offering an alternative theory. I will always suspect HUMAN ERROR before I jump on the mutation band wagon, but I will remain open minded as to mutation being a possibility. If what I write is not clear to you then just ask me instead of speculating ABOUT me in a public forum.
There really isn't any reason for grown men and women to act like children. It is NOT ok to make personal attacks against someone that you don't even know. It is also NOT ok to take someone else's words and copy them to another website in the same way that it is NOT ok to take someone else's pictures without permission and do the same. This shows a real lack of character. It is also the very thing I was trying to show with this post. The hypocrisy that is exhibited by a few self appointed experts is disgusting. It is NOT ok to drag someone's name and/or business through the mud for naming a "found" tomato, if in fact you have done the same.
It is also NOT ok to make statements or question someone's motivation in a way that they can not speak for themselves or defend themselves in any way. In the south we have a term for people like that and it rhymes with CHICKEN SPIT.
There really shouldn't be anything quite as democratic as the tomato and growing it. However, we have allowed a Monarchy to take over. Enough. No one has any more right or claim to fame to do whatever they want in this hobby than anyone else. What is right will always remain what is right. Rules should not change according to who is playing the game. It doesn't really matter if we are talking about something as large as the concept of Freedom, or something as simple as online tomato growing forums.
Let's all try to get along regardless of our opinions. This is a great way to share ideas and increase our knowledge.
-S-
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Post by joseph on Mar 2, 2011 14:51:55 GMT -5
My family has grown a watermelon for decades. It started out as Charleston Gray and that's what we still call it, but there has been genetic drift in it over the years (our seeds are brown instead of black for example.) So when I give away seeds I call it "Charleston Gray - Paradise sub-variety". That's too long for marketing though, so what if I called it "That Gray Melon from Paradise"? Which of course would get shortened to "Paradise Gray" watermelon. That still pays respect to the ancestry of the melon, while at the same time acknowledging that while they are almost the same they might not really be the same.
I personally prefer to name my plants based on phenotype rather than on genetics or history. "Small Red Cherry Tomato" works just fine for me.
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