Selecting for large size fruit

[jbosmith]

When you select for the biggest fruit, do you only use seeds from the biggest fruit or will any fruit from a plant that has large fruit do? In other words, do the genetics vary by fruit or by plant (assuming self-pollination) ?

Split off from this thread.

[jcm05]

jb, I never bought this idea that the genetics differ between fruit on the same plant that came from a single seed. However, maybe one of the other more knowledgeable genetics guys can chime in.

[blane]

Myself, Ive always been tought to save seeds from the 1st flush or (first cluster) of fruits.
These are the Biggest and Earliest ones that develope on the plant-
Having grown several types, in the winter, my results may differ for growouts thru the summer.
For instance-
German Red Strawberry, I grew these out this winter and the fruits were well Below average size, as those grown in the summer.
I saved seeds, and went ahead a re-planted these last week.
The time from drying to re-sowing was a very short period, maybe a week?
Anyway, they are all up, and the seeds where a bit smaller too, so I can only give results from this later on this year.
Whether genetics plays a part in saving from smaller fruit, I definately do not know (for now)...
But I will have an Answer later on!
Good thread Jbo-

[tomato]

A plant will sometimes set a doubled flower which will then produce a single huge fruit roughly twice as big as the rest of the tomatoes on that plant. This is a genetic fluke, not something that is heritable. With that said, look for a plant that consistently produces large fruit and then save seed regardless of the size of the individual fruit you are getting seed from.

There are some varieties that have a huge range of size for fruit on an individual plant. Stump of the World comes to mind as a good example. It will have tomatoes from golf ball size up to soft ball size on the same plant. This is a heritable trait. All commercial breeding programs emphasize producing consistent size fruit on a plant.

DarJones

[jbosmith]

Do bigger fruit have bigger (and more vigorous) seed? I feel like I should know this but have never paid attention.

[blane]

but the double flower that was mentioned by Tomato....
This is not what we want to save fruits from-
Or some of us call it the "Mega-Bloom"...or Fused Blossums



Another example- This was from last year...



Why Stump of the World made this?..I dont know-

Heres another-



But should we save seeds from these?
I get different views, and different opinions from it.
But back to the topic-
Saving seeds from the Largest Fruit...for genetic reasons?
Can we not go wrong here?
just my 2 cents-

[jbosmith]

I thought double blooms were avoided because of the risk of cross-pollination?

[jbosmith]

Mar 14, 2011 22:21:17 GMT -5 @blane said:

Saving seeds from the Largest Fruit...for genetic reasons?
Can we not go wrong here?

Hey your post grew from when I looked at it! Those pics are cool, especially the flower.

I started this thread because, depending on the year, largest fruit might not be possible here. Sometimes we have to take what we can get since we plant out in mid-June and can have frost around Labor Day. I wasn't sure how this would affect breeding.

[tomc]

Mar 14, 2011 22:39:45 GMT -5 jbosmith said:

I thought double blooms were avoided because of the risk of cross-pollination?

Exactly.

[kevin1962]

I'm not a "knowy" regarding tomato genetics, (poultry is my game), so I'm still learning. I should think that genetically speaking, the fruit derived from fused blossoms would be identical to that of the other fruit on the vine, most of which would be singe bloom. Hence, seed that has been taken from fused fruit should produce plants that throw about the same ratio of fused to non fused blossoms in subsequent plants.
Likewise, I cannot see where fruit size would have anything to do with the propensity for subsequent generations to throw a disproportionate number of large fruits. This of course, assumes that the fruit, as stated earlier, has been self-pollinated.

Cheers,
Kevin

[jcm05]

Mar 15, 2011 7:42:19 GMT -5 kevin1962 said:

Hence, seed that has been taken from fused fruit should produce plants that throw about the same ratio of fused to non fused blossoms in subsequent plants.

That is true assuming that the blossom self-pollinates. The point is that there is an increased tendency to out-cross due to the malformed blossoms.

[kevin1962]

quote]That is true assuming that the blossom self-pollinates. The point is that there is an increased tendency to out-cross due to the malformed blossoms.[/quote][/b][/i]

Couldn't agree more. Of course, if it were out-crossed, intentionally or otherwise, all bets would be off. For the sake of the original question, I was assuming the progeny to have been self pollinated.

Personally, I have found that certain varieties of tomatoes, regardless of variations in their environment, throw a disproportionate number of "mega-blooms". Almost always a beefsteak type, almost always a deformed fruit. I used to grow Supersteak from Burpee's and noticed that it usually threw around 25% fused blossoms.

Cheers,
Kevin

[jbosmith]

Thanks for all the great input!

[blane]

Mar 15, 2011 16:22:49 GMT -5 jbosmith said:

Thanks for all the great input!

So you fully understand it now?
Or does Mule need to come in here and Really Throw you for a Class study? ;D

[puttgirl]

Sorry to slightly hijack the thread-but the question is related...why have I read (in many places), NOT to save seed from the first fruit of the plant, and some sources don't mention that at all?