Getting serious about staking and beyond

[hortstu]

So if you've seen my only other thread here so far you know I'm about to grow more tomatoes than I ever have before specifically for jarring and getting the family through winter. Well my garden is on the small side, at least in my opinion it is, and I'm trying to make the best use of space. I've always been good about pruning my tomatoes but never so great about supporting them. This year that's got to change to maximize efficiency. I'm looking for feedback on these ideas I'm about to put into words.

Here's what I plan on growing. The majority of the tomatoes are intended to be used for sauce but I want 1 or 2 Cherokee purples since they're my favorite slicer and at the very least I need some more seed.

Amish paste
San Marzano
Opalka
Rutgers
Costoluto Genovese
Italian Pear (not sure which one but I'm told they're softball sized)
and some Uncle Charlie's

The only ones of these I've grown before are the Rutgers and the Cherokee. I want to try all of these so I can see which works the best for me. Haven't quite decided how many of each yet but my constraints are coming up later in this post.

So I have 3 beds. 2 Raised 8" with cedar boards. The one that isn't raised had tomatoes in it last year so I wont even bring that one up. I plan on moving within the next year but just in case I don't I'd prefer not to plant both beds w/ tomatoes but I can be convinced to change my mind.

Bed one is 13' 9" by 3'8". The odd sizes are because I built them in the middle of a brick patio a few years ago, so their sizes are rounded to multiples of the brick dimensions.

Bed two is 13'9" by 3'4".

In bed one if I plant 1' away the edge I figure I can get 2 rows. Space the plants in 2' on center and I can get 14 plants in. That leaves about 1' 8" between the rows. Is that too tight? Before you answer I'm tempted to try a caging system I heard of last year but never pursued.

www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2001-02-01/Building-Tomato-Towers.aspx

They're called tomato towers. Considering the beds though I'd have to make them a little smaller than described. 4' sections of remesh would result in a diameter of about 2'3" I figure if I go a little smaller I could get them to be 2' in diameter and still have 8" between the cages on the inside.

The more I think about this the more I think I should just go with 12 plants in bed one and stagger them a little... Then maybe do one row of 7 in bed 2. 19 plants with decent spacing.

First, what do you think of these tomato towers? Has anyone tried them?

Second, what do you think of my spacing ideas? Is it too tight? It does get relatively humid here at points in the summer but I do stay on top of pruning... that's one of those things I really like doing.

Finally, I'd be open to any criticism about the thoughts/ plans I've put here.

Thanks

[landarc]

I don't quite understand that article on tomato towers. I am a staker for the most part, although I am always thinking about using a weave or wire trellis technique. I do not believe in pruning tomatoes unless I have to, in general, I feel the less I mess with the plant, the better it is.

Since I have limited room, I have to plant back into beds that have been planted with tomatoes, it just requires some care in reworking the nutrients into the soil. I like to compost back into the beds in the fall after pulling the dead vines.

[hortstu]

Mar 2, 2010 23:28:50 GMT -5 landarc said:

I don't quite understand that article on tomato towers. I am a staker for the most part, although I am always thinking about using a weave or wire trellis technique. I do not believe in pruning tomatoes unless I have to, in general, I feel the less I mess with the plant, the better it is.

Since I have limited room, I have to plant back into beds that have been planted with tomatoes, it just requires some care in reworking the nutrients into the soil. I like to compost back into the beds in the fall after pulling the dead vines.

Landarc,

Basically they're taking 4'x5' sections of wire mesh and bending it into a cylinder. The mesh is typically used to stabilize concrete when they pour... if you're looking in a hardware store one day ask for it as remesh for pouring concrete over. The stuff I have available has 6"x6" openings between the wires. This makes for easy access to training and harvesting.

How tall are your stakes? What is your weather like where you are... typically dry summers or humid?

[hortstu]

Landarc,

This link has an illustration.
www.motherearthnews.com/Organic-Gardening/2002-06-01/Using-Wire-Mesh.aspx

[sorellina]

Ciao hortstu-

I'm also a staker like landarc. The stakes we use are 2x2"s, 8 ft tall sunk 1 ft into the ground. We get bad thunderstorms in our area so we really need things to be pounded in there good and solid. Staking or weaving or cages all work well, it's just a matter of personal preference. From your list, I bet the Italian Pear is commonly referred to as Franchi Pear, a tomato about soft-ball sized and usually heavily pleated. Support that one and Uncle Charlie's very well as the fruit on those are very dense and heavy for their size. In my garden, both of those varieties get very laden with fruit-set. Opalka is a wispy-leafed plant. If you've never grown tomatoes with wispy droopy leaves, it's going to look sick to you. It's not, that's just how it grows. Also, because Opalka is such a dry tomato, it's going to feel almost hollow, light for its size, so supporting it is never a huge issue and I don't go through the twine like I do with some others that send out lots and lots of suckers (which I don't prune either). Costoluto Genovese was fairly productive the year I grew it, but I don't remember it being hugely unmanageable. It got to about 6 ft though, so you do want some fairly sturdy support there. Rutgers and San Marzano can be grown in pots. They're not going to be huge plants. Amish Paste I can't speak to as I've never grown it.

Sounds like your excitement for the coming season is building as your plans start to take some shape.

[jcm05]

I use CRW cages on 90% of my plants. No better way in my opinion, but it sounds like there may not be enough room in your beds. Tying every branch up to a stake is a pain. My beds are 12' x 4' and there is plenty of room for 10 plants per bed. The end plants can be moved closer to the edges to free up more space between the inner plants. The CRW is not exactly the cheapest method of support and the require a bit of storage space over the winter, but these things will nearly outlast your garden itself.

[sorellina]

I don't tie individual branches to the stake, I just give the plant a big hug every 1.5 ft or so when it starts to look like a Y at the top. It's not a big deal and I enjoy being out there with them. I also use that time to look for hornworms and other pests that might be lurking inside the plants.

Last year's season was so cool and wet, this is how the tomato bed looked at the end of July. That really tall one you see is Pink San Marzano, already approaching 7 ft.

[hortstu]

Mar 3, 2010 7:19:10 GMT -5 sorellina said:

Ciao hortstu-

I'm also a staker like landarc. The stakes we use are 2x2 & 8 ft tall sunk 1 ft into the ground. We get bad thunderstorms in our area so we really need things to be pounded in there good and solid.

Hi again sorellina. I imagine if I sunk stakes into the ground only 1' here they probably wouldn't hold for too long.

Staking or weaving or cages all work well, it's just a matter of personal preference.

Yes I've always staked before but the problem has been that the plants always got much taller than the stakes. As mentioned by mulio, I'm thinking of trying both techniques this year and seeing how it goes.

From your list, I bet the Italian Pear is commonly referred to as Franchi Pear, a tomato about soft-ball sized and usually heavily pleated.

I'll ask the gifter. You might be right.

Support that one and Uncle Charlie's very well as the fruit on those are very dense and heavy for their size. In my garden, both of those varieties get very laden with fruit-set. Opalka is a wispy-leafed plant. If you've never grown tomatoes with wispy droopy leaves, it's going to look sick to you. It's not, that's just how it grows. Also, because Opalka is such a dry tomato, it's going to feel almost hollow, light for its size, so supporting it is never a huge issue and I don't go through the twine like I do with some others that send out lots and lots of suckers (which I don't prune either).

Thanks for the heads up.

Costoluto Genovese was fairly productive the year I grew it, but I don't remember it being hugely unmanageable. It got to about 6 ft though, so you do want some fairly sturdy support there. Rutgers and San Marzano can be grown in pots. They're not going to be huge plants. Amish Paste I can't speak to as I've never grown it.

Maybe I will do some containers.

Sounds like your excitement for the coming season is building as your plans start to take some shape.

Very much, so thanks for all the help.

jtcm05 said:

I use CRW cages on 90% of my plants. No better way in my opinion, but it sounds like there may not be enough room in your beds.

Wow JTC thanks for the nice pics... these are exactly what I'm considering. Do you have any pics of when they're full grown and laden with fruit? What length of remesh do you use to make those cages and what is the resulting diameter? I'm wondering how small I can go on these things without running into any problems.

I notice that in the first pic they are rusty... just like the ones at the hardware store here, did you paint them or prime them or something before you installed them?

Tying every branch up to a stake is a pain.

I agree, it's always something I end up slacking on too. Do you end up tying any branches to those cages or does the cage pretty much do everything itself?

My beds are 12' x 4' and there is plenty of room for 10 plants per bed. The end plants can be moved closer to the edges to free up more space between the inner plants.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking with my beds. If I give them a little less than a foot on the ends I can get a row of 6 in there, then if I put them 10" from the long side I can do 2 rows with 2' between each plant on center... they'd be close to the edges but they'd each get 2' spacing... but if I'm using these cages, in order to keep them in the raised beds They need to have 20" diameters or less. I'm wondering if that's too small for some of these larger plants?

If so I could get 14 plants in bed one and at least 7 in bed two with room for some other smaller non tomato plants.

The CRW is not exactly the cheapest method of support and the require a bit of storage space over the winter, but these things will nearly outlast your garden itself.

Yeah that was my rationale too when I saw this idea. As far as storage goes I figure I can open them up to condense them more.

sorellina said:

I don't tie individual branches to the stake, I just give the plant a big hug every 1.5 ft or so when it starts to look like a Y at the top. It's not a big deal and I enjoy being out there with them. I also use that time to look for hornworms and other pests that might be lurking inside the plants.

I like spending time with the plants but they seem a little more demanding when on stakesthen yours are... I guess I'm just not a great staker. Pracitce makes perfect I guess. Nice picture by the way. Mine grew nice for the first part of the summer but never really set any fruit that finished. It was the worst tomato year I've ever had. The people I gave seedlings to said the same thing... Wonder if they'll still want some from me this year.

Last year's season was so cool and wet, this is how the tomato bed looked at the end of July. That really tall one you see is Pink San Marzano, already approaching 7 ft.

WOW I imagine the san marzano won't be doing that if it's in a container... unless it's very big.

[mawkhawk]

Weaving all those plants sounds like a huge pain in the ass to me. Myself, I just use the regular, cheap, flimsy cages that you can get anywhere. I use a few hardwood stakes to stake them down so they don't topple over. If you live in a short season climate then your plants might not get tall enough to top the cages.

[jcm05]

Mar 3, 2010 14:58:27 GMT -5 hortstu said:

Do you have any pics of when they're full grown and laden with fruit? What length of remesh do you use to make those cages and what is the resulting diameter? I'm wondering how small I can go on these things without running into any problems.

I have a few I will look for and will post at the bottom. Most CRW comes 5 feet tall with 6"x6" openings(squares). I have experimented with different diameter cages. I've used 60"(10 squares), 66"(11 squares) and 70"(12 squares). These come out to 19", 21" and 22" diameter cages. The 21" cages are the all-around best but I have plenty that are 19" and they work just as well. I've also found that the wider you go, not only do you needlessly use more wire, but the plants can sometimes later in the season have a tendency to collapse inside the cage. I wouldn't go any narrower than 19" though.

I notice that in the first pic they are rusty... just like the ones at the hardware store here, did you paint them or prime them or something before you installed them?

Nope, they just rust. No big deal.

I agree, it's always something I end up slacking on too. Do you end up tying any branches to those cages or does the cage pretty much do everything itself?

Rarely.

Yeah that's what I'm thinking with my beds. If I give them a little less than a foot on the ends I can get a row of 6 in there, then if I put them 10" from the long side I can do 2 rows with 2' between each plant on center... they'd be close to the edges but they'd each get 2' spacing... but if I'm using these cages, in order to keep them in the raised beds They need to have 20" diameters or less. I'm wondering if that's too small for some of these larger plants?

Thats what I do. The plants can be closer to the sides and ends of the beds to give more space between the plants.

[landarc]

Okay, they gave a fancy name to JT cages, got it. My stakes are 5ft tall but, I have had to extend them on occasion, to as much as 8ft. I try to get at least 24" into the ground. I tend to tie every foot with plastic strips cut from grocery bags at 12 to 18 inch intervals.

[mawkhawk]

Heh, hmmm, maybe I should try it before I knock it then...

[jcm05]

There are no weeds in my tomato beds!

[dld]

Just blight of one form or another!

[mawkhawk]

Mar 3, 2010 18:18:45 GMT -5 @mulio said:

oh and I think I saw a weed in jt's pictures

Oh, I think that's an Early Girl...