mdvpc
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 37
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Post by mdvpc on Nov 2, 2010 7:41:09 GMT -5
John and Darth: Thanks for the welcome! Nice looking rhfs, John. I have seed for this but havent ever grown it. Photo of Utyonok in the greenhouse. This photo was taken a few days ago. Fruit is coloring up now. Attachments:
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mdvpc
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 37
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Post by mdvpc on Nov 2, 2010 7:45:25 GMT -5
Here is a photo of extreme bush dwarf german. This variety and utyonok are about 12 inches tall. Attachments:
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carolyn137
Breeder in Training
Its all my fault
Posts: 180
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Post by carolyn137 on Nov 2, 2010 7:48:53 GMT -5
Thanks Carolyn. Good to see you Michael. Welcome! Lee, I have heard and read good things about the "summertime" varieties. Is seed available for them? Here is a pic of Red House Free Standing from 2007 that PV and I spoke of. This plant is not necessarily unique in that it produces large quantities of large fruit but that it does so on a very compact dwarf plant. It gets no taller then 2 feet whereas most dwarves I've grown get to over 4 feet by the end of each season. It produces mostly 7-11 oz fruit with the largest being 13.6oz back in 2009. Like I said though, flavor is just average. Texture is good. Fruit doesn't crack, but they are susceptible to BER (Which ruined a couple good crosses this past season). I did however, cross it with black cherry this year. John, I can answer the question about seed availability for the varieties developed in the Dwarf Project. No, no seed is available. As varieties beomce stable, and quite a few are now, Craig has sent seeds for those to several folks not even associated with the Dwarf Project, for grow out and seed production. In one case the seeds got to the person too late to grow out this past season, or he overlooked them, and in another case the person's complete growout was wiped out by heavy rains and disease and he's a person who normally lists hundreds of varieties in the YEarbook and he's not listing one new variety for 2011. It was made clear to those who joined the project that the seeds they were sent for growout were not to be shared, rather, seeds sent back to Craig, or to Patrina with the Aussie folks, who kept the inventory of all the varieties as to F whatever and results from each growout and posted all of that at Tville. The game plan is to offer seeds commercially by sending to certain seed sites and to send the seeds for the varieties initially and then each site can grow and produce their own in the future. Craig has already made contact with several seed sites. If it sounds like I've been talking with Craig a lot, that's true. We've known each other since 1989 so it's a very long time friendship and we talk often. Unfortunately I can also say that it's known that some of the seed, I don't know which varieties, has made it's way out of the project by those who didn't honor their obligations. The problem is that both Patrina and Craig want to be sure that ALL varieties released are genetically stable. And the admonition to not share seeds has been posted now several times. One heck of a lot of work has gone into developing these varieties so the desire to have nothing but genetically stable varieties out there takes priority. I didn't even save seed of the ones I listed above, but then I'm not even a member of that project and besides, I honor the right of the Dwarf Project Co-Organizers, Craig and Patrina, to determine when something is stable, as several are right now. It's helped immensely that two crops a year can be grown, one in the US and the other in Australia. Hope that helps. Carolyn, and Lee, if I've forgotten anything, please chime in and you too Michael.
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Post by flowerpower on Nov 3, 2010 5:41:06 GMT -5
I found a red heart shaped dwarf in the Long Island Seed Project Dwarf Champion Mix in 2006, and sent seeds for it back to Ken Ettlinger who's offered it since under the name Little Red Bullet. Of course I was told there were no heart shaped dwarves by the leader of the Dwarf Project at Tomatoville, who now apparently has heart shaped dwarves of his own, finally. pv PV, I think you sent me Red Bullet in '06. Thanks again. I have grown and saved seed ever since. The fruit shape is stable so far. So I guess there was a heart-shaped dwarf already. Only the height has varied. I had one this yr only 9 in. high. It produced several small sized fruit. PV sent me seeds for several of the LISP dwarves. I have grown them in pots on the deck and in the ground. They stay nice and short. My favs are the red bullet and the pink. I don't breed tomatoes, just select for traits I like. If anyone wants to start their own dwarf breeding project, you can order the seed from LISP.
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carolyn137
Breeder in Training
Its all my fault
Posts: 180
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Post by carolyn137 on Nov 3, 2010 7:09:14 GMT -5
Someone at idig had offered to me seeds for what she called Red Heart and said it was a small plant and I tracked it down to a seed site where PV had sent seeds and finally found out it wasn't yet stable and since I no longer have the space to do grow outs to work on variety stability I had to turn her down. This was perhaps just two years ago.
So Red Heart became Red Bullet and is now stable?
Carolyn
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lee
Tomato Gardener
Tomatopaloozer?
Tomatopaloozer?
Posts: 59
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Post by lee on Nov 3, 2010 11:06:52 GMT -5
Thanks Carolyn. Good to see you Michael. Welcome! Lee, I have heard and read good things about the "summertime" varieties. Is seed available for them? Here is a pic of Red House Free Standing from 2007 that PV and I spoke of. This plant is not necessarily unique in that it produces large quantities of large fruit but that it does so on a very compact dwarf plant. It gets no taller then 2 feet whereas most dwarves I've grown get to over 4 feet by the end of each season. It produces mostly 7-11 oz fruit with the largest being 13.6oz back in 2009. Like I said though, flavor is just average. Texture is good. Fruit doesn't crack, but they are susceptible to BER (Which ruined a couple good crosses this past season). I did however, cross it with black cherry this year. John, Summertime Gold seed should be available soon. I haven't talked to Craig yet, but the idea this spring was to have that variety in seed production this year. You can always drop Craig a note to find out the status. I had an 18oz. fruit off of one plant last year that was barley 4' tall. Your Red House Free Standing looks really good. A large red dwarf is one category that has eluded us in the project so far. Of the few that have shown up, they were either not very big, or not very good tasting. I crossed a medium red dwarf (Grizzly F4) with Cuostralee this season to try and get the large red with great flavor. I called it Brawny F1, and am trying to get the fruit from the hybrid to ripen up this year. Fortunately, it's in a pot I can haul inside as needed! Lee
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Nov 3, 2010 12:21:20 GMT -5
Yeah, gonna frost here Friday night, so that's it for seed fruit. Gotta pick the rest of the Red House Free Standing and Cherokee Tiger fruit green. Other dwarves passed on long ago 'cuz they couldn't handle the drought and heat this summer. Wimpy things they were, too. Including Summertime Green, Summer Sunrise, Summertime Gold and Emerald Green Giant, all of which were underproductive and susceptible to heat stress, foliar diseases, low production and BER.
My criticism is based solely on my feelings that dwarves should be capable of satisfactorily thriving and producing in containers on patio slabs and porch decks as that is the target market, in my opinion.
pv
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jcm05
Administrator
Posts: 1,685
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Post by jcm05 on Nov 3, 2010 13:20:14 GMT -5
I had an 18oz. fruit off of one plant last year that was barley 4' tall. Geez, that's tremendous. Well, maybe I will send Craig an email, but keep me in mind if they do become available. Yeah, I'm hoping the RHFSxBC cross will keep all of the female traits except flavor. That's not asking too much...is it? I guess I could settle for dark colored fruit too. ;D
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Post by flowerpower on Nov 4, 2010 6:53:35 GMT -5
Someone at idig had offered to me seeds for what she called Red Heart and said it was a small plant and I tracked it down to a seed site where PV had sent seeds and finally found out it wasn't yet stable and since I no longer have the space to do grow outs to work on variety stability I had to turn her down. This was perhaps just two years ago. So Red Heart became Red Bullet and is now stable? Carolyn I can't say if they are the same tomato. I can find no listing except for Reif's RH. And I know that's not the one you mean. Red Bullet was found in a growout of the LISP Dwarf mix. The seed was sent back to Long Island and is now offered separately. LISP says it is not totally stable, but they are working with a much bigger gene pool than I am. As I said, so far, I have seen no big differences in the plants. I have alot of friends around here who live in ''town''. Many plant in pots. Plants really need to be able to take a beating. I think drought resistance in a dwarf might be the most impotant trait. A poor tomato could shrivel in a day if you forget to water.
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Post by bluelacedredhead on Nov 4, 2010 6:55:46 GMT -5
Dwarf plants would be good for you to plant, FP. That way, you don't have to stand on a ladder to pick tomatoes ;D
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carolyn137
Breeder in Training
Its all my fault
Posts: 180
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Post by carolyn137 on Nov 4, 2010 8:30:29 GMT -5
Someone at idig had offered to me seeds for what she called Red Heart and said it was a small plant and I tracked it down to a seed site where PV had sent seeds and finally found out it wasn't yet stable and since I no longer have the space to do grow outs to work on variety stability I had to turn her down. This was perhaps just two years ago. So Red Heart became Red Bullet and is now stable? Carolyn I can't say if they are the same tomato. I can find no listing except for Reif's RH. And I know that's not the one you mean. Red Bullet was found in a growout of the LISP Dwarf mix. The seed was sent back to Long Island and is now offered separately. LISP says it is not totally stable, but they are working with a much bigger gene pool than I am. As I said, so far, I have seen no big differences in the plants. I have alot of friends around here who live in ''town''. Many plant in pots. Plants really need to be able to take a beating. I think drought resistance in a dwarf might be the most impotant trait. A poor tomato could shrivel in a day if you forget to water. No, not Reig Red heart which I know well and have grown several times and was first introduced by my friend Craig LeHoullier. I think what happened is that when I Googled Red Heart and found it at a seed site and saw that it was PV who sent it there that I asked Bill about it and he said it was from ken Ettlinger and indicated it might not be stable. And since I no longer have the room to work on stabilizing varieties I decided to not pursue it with the lady who offered it b'c she couldn't remember who she got it from and didn't know if it was stable or not. I love heart varieties and right now am both happy and said b'c a new Portuguese one has large super red hearts on a PL plant and I got only two fruits I think and Craig L, who was doing the seed production had all three of the Portuguese ones wiped out with disease. There's the heart, and a paste, which was also great and a beefsteak and I got no fruits from the beefsteak but the lady who sent me seeds for all three sent enough seeds of all three so they can be grown again next summer. Same with two new ones from Macedonia/ Not many seeds at all but enough to SSE list for a year, then regrow so I can add them to my free seed offer at Tville as well. I get much more feedback and satisfaction from that offer than I ever did from my SSE listings, so in the future I'll probably divert most seed to the seed offer. I do like to list varieties, though, so that there's a chance that some seed co owner might pick them up and thus help with seed preservation of a variety. But then each year I send the best of what I've grown for trial at TGS, Sandhill, Gleckler, Victory and usually Marianne Jones, b'c I know all those owners well, and trust them and what they do. There are a few other places I should send seed to for trial, but right now I don't want to take on any more. And of course for years a few of my best longtime SSE friends and I swap seeds each year. Carolyn
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tomato
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 58
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Post by tomato on Nov 4, 2010 14:52:32 GMT -5
Just a quick note that I took a look through Tatiana's dwarf listing and saw several that I have grown are not in that list. Scarlet Champion and Fomou would be examples.
I sampled several of the dwarf varieties at Tomatopalooza. There were three that are very promising. One of them is outstanding and that is the one I brought back 7 seed to grow next year.
DarJones
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Post by flowerpower on Nov 5, 2010 6:36:44 GMT -5
Dwarf plants would be good for you to plant, FP. That way, you don't have to stand on a ladder to pick tomatoes ;D Good things come in small packages. ;D One advantage is that I can still shop in the kids' section for clothes. lol
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Nov 5, 2010 7:40:30 GMT -5
Carolyn and FlowerPower:
Let me try to briefly address Little Red Bullet.
I got a pack of about 30 seeds from Ken Ettlinger in 2006. They were the Long Island Seed Project Dwarf Champion Mix.
I planted all the seeds in the pack and planted out 20 at a remote seed garden and about 6 in containers at home.
Ken said I should get yellows, pinks, red, orange, and green when ripes from the mix.
The best of the bunch were the pink, the yellow (one bright yellow and one dark yellow), and this off type we are discussing which I called Little Red Bullet. I did not get a green when ripe.
I assume the Little Red Bullet was an off-type from the round red type Ken shows in pictures at his LISP site. But that's not for certain.
In 2006, I did not know a fraction of what I have learned since. So, I assumed the Little Red Bullet would remain about the same as it appeared that year ... a very short, bushy plant with very rugose leaves and small cone shaped fruit that to me looked like a fat, pointed ornamental pepper pod ... bullet shaped.
Since 2006, I have had plants that were up to 3 feet tall, where the original was a little rounded lump of vegetation only about 18 inches tall. I have had small, sparsely leafed plants. I have had heavily rugose foliage and foliage that while somewhat rugose also looked more like a Roma leaf type. I've had fruit the size of the original and up to normal paste size fruit that will fill the palm of your hand.
All the fruit I have had since 2006, regardless of size, has been red and pointed. Some of it will qualify as "heart shaped," but some of it is more plum shaped.
What people should do is select for themselves what they like.
Personally, I would prefer the short, bushy, patio type plants with the bullet shaped/heart shaped red tomatoes.
Sounds like FlowerPower has found that expression. I would love some seeds from that plant if she can send them to me.
Carolyn asked me regarding this tomato about a year ago and I told her my experience was that it continues to be a bit unstable for me. But maybe my mistake as been to select for plant health and tolerance to heat, drought, and pot culture since I am trying to get a group of dwarves that thrive in containers on patio slabs or porch decks.
I have a few now that will do that. But the line I have from the Little Red Bullet now has elongated, pointed red fruit on 2 - 2.5 foot tall plants with what I have to call rugose Roma leaf shapes ... and the elongated fruit sometimes might be called plum more so than heart.
I guess I could go back to my old seeds from year to year and find a shorter plant with more heart shaped or bullet shaped fruit. But it would be easier for me to ask FlowerPower for a few seeds :::smile:::
pv
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carolyn137
Breeder in Training
Its all my fault
Posts: 180
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Post by carolyn137 on Nov 5, 2010 8:18:39 GMT -5
Thanks, that clears it up for me.
When you told me it was not stable I told whoever it was who offered to me what she called Red Heart that while I appreciated her offer I didn't have the room to work on stabilizing it these days.
So that was that.
Carolyn
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