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Post by soren on Apr 10, 2011 9:59:29 GMT -5
I think some of the Purple Haze selections are PL cherries. Someone here probably knows for sure.
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paulf
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 70
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Post by paulf on Apr 10, 2011 19:34:41 GMT -5
Sorry I am late to this thread. I started growing Black Cherry in '06, ordered the seed from the first to sell it, the originator, TGS. I have reordered a couple of times for comparison and it has been consistently excellent. I have no problems with splitting; the problem is production ... way more than we can eat so some go to waste. My saved seed has also come true so far as I can tell.
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attml
Tomato Gardener
Posts: 43
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Post by attml on Apr 11, 2011 0:25:45 GMT -5
I got Black Cherry form TGS this year and I am pretty excited about it!
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Post by indyartist on Apr 11, 2011 6:06:38 GMT -5
I have "Black Cherry" purchased from TGS started this year plus "Black Russian Cherry" purchased of EBay. The Black Russian's have a very distinct leaf and plant color so I believe they will be a completely different animal.
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 11:43:43 GMT -5
I received an email from Martin yesterday.
After saying harsh words about his post at Homesteading Today and Not Just Tomatoes, I think it's only fair that I post his side of the story here, since otherwise his side of the story will not appear at The Tomato Garden.
So ...
Martin says it is obvious that I (and I assume many other tomato hobbyists) "were not on the garden forums when Black Cherry debuted and was followed by various reports of its possible instability."
Answer: That may be true since I only started on the Garden Web tomato forum in 2005, and I do not know when Black Cherry made its debut.
Martin says, "over the next few years, via reports from those growing (Black Cherry), it was obvious that something was not right."
Answer: That may be true, but I don't recall anything but rave reviews of Black Cherry at Garden Web and subsequent forums where I participated. The first time I became aware of Black Cherry "off types" was when Tom Micholas (TomTrees) sent me back seeds for a over sized Black Cherry his friend at work grew from seeds I sent Tom. I never got anything but the normally small size Black Cherry from the same batch, so I suspect the oversizing was a result of a chance stray pollen, or possibly, yes there was some latent instability in the lot of seeds I got from TGS packed for 2005. Don't know.
Martin continues to explain that early on, Garden Web didn't have photo posting capability, so participants could only go by published written descriptions, and that people seemed to share the same description for the early release seeds.
Martin contends that it wasn't until a few years later, when the topic came up on IDig, that posted photos confirmed considerable variations in the Black Cherry results, and that no one was able to conclude which expression was correct.
Reply: I seem to remember that the source of incorrect Black Cherry seed was Baker Creek and that's why the issue was raised at IDig. I also remember that Green Zone went to great lengths to address this reportedly incorrect seed from Baker Creek. I have a batch of that seed from both the year before and the year of the reported incorrect lot, but I have never grown it out. If I remember correctly, the issue came up regarding seed grown for Baker Creek in either 2008 or 2009.
Martin's email continues to explain that "at that time ... the only certainty was that the only known true/pure Black Cherry seeds had to be the original received from Vince Sapp."
Reply: I assume Martin means you had to get the seed directly from Vince Sapp rather than ordering it through Vince Sapp's company, Tomato Grower's Supply, an assumption with which I cannot agree until I see adequate substantiation, and that is why I expressed the opinions I expressed a couple of days ago. But whatever ...
Martin continues by saying, "where things went wrong in the 5 or 6 years is anyone's guess but it was obvious that something happened."
Reply: Could very well be the case, but where does the clock start the 5-year count? Seems the birth date for Black Cherry keeps shifting. Again, whatever ...
Martin then says the IDig thread regarding the Black Cherry issues should be available but apparently the Garden Web data is not and advises to look for it and decide for yourself. He applies this to me because I demanded proof of his statements. So I will look.
Martin also says the bottom line is that he knows every step that Black Cherry took from its creator to Fedco, and doubts that other companies can claim the same. My reply is that may be true, and it's my fondest hope that Fedco indeed is vending the correct Black Cherry seed, and that I know Baker Creek owned up a few years ago to their mistaken seed, but that I still need proof that Tomato Grower's Supply is not vending the correct seed. Furthermore I continue to think it's a disservice to Linda Sapp, widow of Vince, to say she willfully sold wrong seed after Vince died, especially if such a claim is based on spurious rumors. If the rumors are true, offer proof.
Martin closes his email by saying that I knew ahead of time that he would not rebut me at Tomato Garden, and that is why I said what I said about Martin here previously.
Martin, I am more of a man than that. In fact I respect you Martin for what you've done in the way of variety preservation and even more so for your vast generosity when sharing seeds with other hobbyists.
But Martin, you cannot just say whatever the hell you wish to say about other people without expecting some flack. Same goes for me. Same goes for anyone else who voices strong opinions, or especially for those who toss out unsubstantiated speculation. And Martin, you cannot go around claiming to be the sole savior or this, that, and the other variety without drawing an occasional chuckle, chiding, or smart-ass remark from guys like me.
So, here is Martin's side of it. I hope I have not misrepresented his intended context where I edited his message slightly. Those with eyes may read. Those with a brain can make up their own mind.
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nolika
Tomato Fanatic
Tomato Junkie
Posts: 275
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Post by nolika on Apr 13, 2011 14:17:39 GMT -5
I've grown Black Cherry from TGS seeds I bought in 2007. They were great, I saved seeds. That year was very sunny and hot here, so the color of all so called black tomatoes was very dark. The next year I grew Black Cherry and all other blacks I grew the previous year from my own saved seeds. That year the summer was very wet and cold and ALL the tomatoes (Black Cherry included) were pale colored, almost dark pinkish gray. So anyone who saw Black Cherry that year could have said I don't have the TRUE type, whatever that is supposed to be.
Black tomatoes are darker if the summers are hot and sunny, that is a fact.
Will someone please tell me, what the 'real' or 'true' Black Cherry is suppose to look like?
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lee
Tomato Gardener
Tomatopaloozer?
Tomatopaloozer?
Posts: 59
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Post by lee on Apr 13, 2011 14:35:51 GMT -5
Interesting thread here. I was on GW since 2001, and don't recall any discussion of Black Cherry being unstable when first released by TGS. Doesn't mean there wasn't one, it just means either my memory is bad, I missed, or there wasn't one! All I know is that I got Black Cherry from TGS the first year they offered it. While the seeds were difficult to germinate that year, the resulting fruit matched the TGS description and photo exactly. In all of my growouts of my own saved seed, I have never had any differences in plant habit, shape, size, fruit color/size/taste or productivity. So, I have no doubts that I have what Vince Sapp developed and sold as Black Cherry. If anyone needs seed, let me know.... Lee
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surf4grrl
Tomato Gardener
Head Growerouter
Organic farmer
Posts: 99
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Post by surf4grrl on Apr 13, 2011 14:54:35 GMT -5
Curious, but why didn't Martin just post that himself here?
I know one thing, the whole tomato celebrity/hooha/master thing sure does get old fast.
Again, and while I love 'maters - it is only tomatoes, not a cure for cancer or fixing world hunger.
If that's what people need to do to feel important, I truly feel sorry for them.
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 15:06:51 GMT -5
Curious, but why didn't Martin just post that himself here? Says he doesn't want to expose himself to a certain "stench." I know one thing, the whole tomato celebrity/hooha/master thing sure does get old fast. Yes, indeed it does. It's unnecessary, embarrassing, and in most cases unfounded. It's just a hobby. Again, and while I love 'maters - it is only tomatoes, not a cure for cancer or fixing world hunger. Again, I agree 100% and have said the same myself. If that's what people need to do to feel important, I truly feel sorry for them. Well, dear, I wouldn't get my wet suit all up in a bunch about it, though.
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lee
Tomato Gardener
Tomatopaloozer?
Tomatopaloozer?
Posts: 59
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Post by lee on Apr 13, 2011 15:59:06 GMT -5
Will someone please tell me, what the 'real' or 'true' Black Cherry is suppose to look like? A picture is worth a 1000 words, so here's 4000 words. Tomatopalooza[tm] II 2004 Tomatopalooza[tm] IV 2006 at 1 o'clock Tomatopalooza[tm] VI 2008 And the master source : TGS
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 17:35:18 GMT -5
Here is a link to the discussion I remember at IDig where Green Zone tries to resolve the wrong seed issue for Baker Creek customers: idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34232&highlight=black+cherryI'll continue searching for earlier discussions of off-type Black Cherry or wrong types, as the discussion I just linked is separated from Vince Sapp and TGS by many miles, many years, and apparently many careless growers.
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 17:38:03 GMT -5
As Nolika said of Black Cherry in her message above, I also have had Black Cherry make fruit as dark as any of those darkest ones Lee shows, when the weather was warm, dry and sunny, and alternately a lighter hue with slightly larger, watery fruit when the season was cooler, wetter and cloudier. Such is life in the tomato patch.
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 17:46:28 GMT -5
Here is the first mention of Black Cherry at IDig forums I am able to find, and coincidentally, Martin comments in the discussion without ever mentioning a problem with the stability of the variety. So, apparently there was no issue as of April 2007, about a year after Vince Sapp had passed away. idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3371&highlight=black+cherryYou'll notice however that Martin already IDs his seed as coming from a special "strain" he prefers, and has already forwarded seed to Fedco, if this helps pin down a start line for the controversy. More facts needed ...
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PVP
Tomatophile
head spellerer
Only an Amateur
Posts: 798
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Post by PVP on Apr 13, 2011 18:02:39 GMT -5
Okay, this may help. I've found a thread at IDig where Martin first raises the issue of a possible difference between the original Vince Sapp Black Cherry and subsequent Black Cherry types available from TGS and others. idigmygarden.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4215&highlight=black+cherry+bhpigeon2&page=2 [Which Is the Real Black Cherry, summer 2007] Note here at Post #15 that Martin says, "... problem is that nobody knows how stable it (Black Cherry) was when released and the person who created it isn't around to ask. I believe that it was 2004 when first offered by Tomato Growers Supply. That was also the first year that it was grown here (at Martin's location I presume) but the source was not TGS. Instead, it was from a gardener who had gotten them from the person who created it. As far as we know, no variances have been recorded from that line (the line I presume was forwarded to Fedco). I include the "note" because in that statement Martin says he did not get the seed directly from Vince Sapp, rather from an intermediary who says he got it directly from Vince Sapp. I'm not accusing. Just comparing various statements along the way.
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Post by jbosmith on Apr 13, 2011 18:30:56 GMT -5
Tomatopalooza[tm] II 2004 Wow. That's all I have to say. Pap - If this Martin guy doesn't want to come talk to us directly, I don't really see the point in letting him cause you any stress. You know as well as I do that he will never admit that he is wrong. Also, in regards to the above picture, I would like to reiterate. Wow.
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