Speculation on dwarves

[tomc]

I did not have the space to do any of the grow outs of dwarf project. I'm wondering though if anyone has a feeling when some of them will show up to barter or buy.

[darthslater]

I am starting not to care they have been dragging feet on this project, some are F8 or F9 by now!! They should have been available at F5.

[lee]

Craig sent seed for growouts and production in 2009 to a couple of seed companies. Neither were able to do any grow outs, so nothing was available to release in 2010. About 8~10 varieties from the Sneezy and Sleepy lines were sent out this year to a few different places (not seed companies)for grow outs. The idea for these two years was to confirm uniformity over many plants and produce enough seed to distribute.

Of the four growers, I've only heard results back from two. One (Reinherd Kraft) had good success confirming uniformity on some of the varieties, and one had a total crop loss.
Craig may have heard back from the other two, but I don't know the status of that.

The plan was to have the first wave of dwarves available before now, but circumstances have
unfortunately prevented that.

Tom, Shoot Craig an email and I'm sure he'll be able to up date you more.

Lee

[tomc]

Um, no. I am not of the persuasion of; "who ever has the most toys when he dies, wins". This work will or will not get here when its ready

I got asked, 'whats new' and I talked about the dwarf project to a non-geek freind, I figure I shoud get my suspicions and guess comfirmed or denied.

He saw what was obviously a dwarf ftom a retail souce so his presumption was that this had already hit the market, I wasn't sure.

When I don't know, I ask.

[carolyn137]

Dec 7, 2010 2:41:39 GMT -5 tomc said:

Um, no. I am not of the persuasion of; "who ever has the most toys when he dies, wins". This work will or will not get here when its ready

I got asked, 'whats new' and I talked about the dwarf project to a non-geek freind, I figure I shoud get my suspicions and guess comfirmed or denied.

He saw what was obviously a dwarf ftom a retail souce so his presumption was that this had already hit the market, I wasn't sure.

When I don't know, I ask.

Did your non-geek friend see a dwarf from that retail source that was one of the dwarf project ones? The name would have been the giveaway on that I would assume.

Neil Lockhart lost all of his dwarf growouts this past summer as well as almost everything else. he has been so very upset about it and only had a few plants of a hybrid he bought. This from a person who lists close to 700 varieties in the SSE YEarbook so I'm sure you can appreciate that.

Bill Minkey was also doing dwarf growouts and Craig was going to call him but I don't know if he did.

The seeds for the dwarfs that Craig sent to Glenn Drowns to be checked and grown out for seed production got there too late or Glenn forgot about them Linda, his wife told me.

And there's no question in my mind that dwarf variety seeds have been shared with folks who are not part of the dwarf project although both Patrina and Craig asked that folks not do that.

I'm not part of that project but Craig did send me 5 plants two years ago and I don't care how long the wait is, but I think some of them are outstanding. The two that I thought were great were Summertime Green and Summertime Gold and I think it was Wild Fr4ed that I also liked, a dark colored one.

Darth, at the F5 for many of them they were still segregating. Some of the crosses were rather complex. And some aren't stable at the F6 as I hear it.

The length of time that's needed to get genetic stabilization of any crosses, whether deliberate or from an initial natural cross pollination can vary widely and is known to take anywheres from the F3 to the F10 depending on selections made, the possibiity of linked genes and more.

It's been a huge project and my kudos to Both Craig and Patrina for what they've accomplished so far in terms of coordinating the project as well as to the many participants, especially since the ban on importation of tomato seed to Australia which came about due to fears about Potato Spindle Viroid, which also infects tomatoes, being imported into Australia and the restrictions and slow down that has caused.

Carolyn

[tomc]

Carolyn my freind (Bruce Graham) has only the smallest of toe holds into the internet. Like he's just gotten email in the past year. He took a passing remark of mine about the dwarf project and linked a connection between what he saw, an' what I talked about. Alas he didn't collect a name.

By inference; (correct my error please) I'm hearing there are pre-existing Dwarves commercially offered? I too can live with arrival of new cultivars, when they get here.

[soren]

It looks like Craig has been selling seedlings of some of the more advanced dwarfs this year nctomatoman.weebly.com/from-the-vine-vegetable-seedings-2010.html

So I guess some of them must be stable enough to distribute?

[PVP]

Dec 7, 2010 7:22:18 GMT -5 carolyn137 said:

... there's no question in my mind that dwarf variety seeds have been shared with folks who are not part of the dwarf project although both Patrina and Craig asked that folks not do that.

Carolyn

Yes, there is no doubt this has and will continue to happen, whether through seeds saved from tomatoes shared or tasted here and there through the mail or at tomato tastings across the country. Whatever the sources, yes it has happened.

And yet, as of yet, there seem to be no seeds commercially available, so at least there has been a great degree of restraint out of respect to Craig and Patrina. Yes? (Rhetorical, and not requiring an answer, okay.)

So, that bring me to a real question that I would like answered:

Let's say that someone is in possession of some Dwarf Project seeds, whether for a stable example or an as yet unstable example. Either way, the question remains the same:

Any harm or any foul if that someone should use that stable or unstable example in a subsequent cross, and then doing whatever that person wished with the resulting hybrid germplasm or its subsequent filial generations of germplasm?

Examples: If someone not a part of the Dwarf Project were to have Sneezy F4 PL, Sneezy F5 RL, Summer Sunrise F7, or Summertime Gold F9, whatever, and take that and cross it with say KBX, or Green Giant, or Lucky Cross, or whatever else, and then move forward with one's own project on one's own terms ... any foul or any harm done to the Dwarf Project or its managers/management?

This is done all the time, right?

I mean folks are crossing open pollinated standards with PVP OPs or hybrids all the time and sharing the resulting stable or unstable germplasm with or without permission from whomever, etc. Right?

Example: Hazy: Dwarf Wild Fred F3 (RL) X Purple Haze F1 (RL)

Just askin' for opinions or pertinent facts.


pv

[lee]

Bill,

I think your interpretation is correct. I won't speak for Craig or Patrina on their opinion, but my
interpretation of their request is that seeds of say Summertime Gold not be spread around/shared
until the final stabilized selection is ready.
The reason for this request was not to limit availability, but to ensure that when Summertime Gold is available, that all the seeds out there are the true selected Summertime Gold.

So, as you surmise, if you have one of the dwarf varieties and you cross it with something, then
that's yours to do with as you please. I did this with Grizzly F4 x Cuostralee this year to create Brawny F1.

Again, take this as Lee's interpretation of the program's guidelines based on personal talks with both Craig and Patrina.


Soren,

Yes Craig has been selling seedlings of some of the more stable dwarf varieties the past couple of years. His main motivation was to see how they did for some of his more regular customers
and get feedback apart from his own growouts.

Tom,

You are correct in that there are quite a few commercially available dwarf OP tomato varieties.
New Big Dwarf and Golden Dwarf Champion are two very good ones, as is Lime Green Salad.
The first goal of this project was to create new varieties of larger fruited dwarf plants. We've
now got some dwarf varieties that produce 16oz.+ size tomatoes.
The second goal was to create more color combinations than previously existed.

I really hope that we are able to get seed production under way, and a means to make them
widely available very soon. There are some really excellent varieties that should be ready.

Lee

[PVP]

Thanks for your reply, Lee. Very helpful. Until I hear differently, I will operate on that premise.

By the way, for anyone who is looking for a decent dwarf cherry. You can grow Husky Red Cherry F1 with good results, and I had excellent results growing out F2 and F3 from Husky Red Cherry. Nice flavor and excellent plant health and production from both the F2 and F3s.


pv

[tomc]

I don't think I have ever bartered with Patrina, Craig has been nothing but good to me. I will tell Bruce he wandered across another OP Dwarf.

I'm goning to try and wedge some of Alan Bishops corn into somewhee with (I'm hoping) four kinds of tomatoes. I already have too many in my seed box that shoulda' been planted last (2010) year. I have not heard anything back from CFI, so I figure for now I'm on my own...

[PVP]

TomC, are you in New Hampshire or S.E. Ohio?


pv

[carolyn137]

Dec 7, 2010 14:52:49 GMT -5 PVP said:

Thanks for your reply, Lee. Very helpful. Until I hear differently, I will operate on that premise.

By the way, for anyone who is looking for a decent dwarf cherry. You can grow Husky Red Cherry F1 with good results, and I had excellent results growing out F2 and F3 from Husky Red Cherry. Nice flavor and excellent plant health and production from both the F2 and F3s.


pv

PV, I agree with Lee that both Patrina and Craig have requested that all seeds be sent back to them. And only when the varieties are genetically stable will they be released commercially and I spoke to that above in terms of assessment of an OP state and seed production.

When I think of the hours upon hours that have gone on with this project in two continents so they could get two F generations in a year I am amazed at what has been accomplished so quickly, but then I'm limited to just one F generation/year where I live.

And I'll be honest and say that it bothers me greatly that some of those in the project distributed seeds to non-project folks, but I guess it was inevitable/

PV, I think since you've been so public about it that you'd feel best if you did contact Craig and discuss what you want to do with some of these still segregating varieties. I think I know what he'll say, but I can't be sure.

Tom, you might want to edit your post at Tville a bit to indicate that what your firend saw was anothe Dwarf, for there are many out there and many confuse a dwarf with an indeterminate. And not a dwarf from the dwarf project and I had mentioned that the names given to the various dwarf project varieties were a dead giveaway .

I haven't yet stopped by Tville tonight so I don't know if you did edit anything or if there was a response there.

Lee, that one person looking for Summertime Green Seeds at Tville who posted that he found that Craig was selling the plants in his annual plant sale was read by some of the Dwarf Project folks and I know at least one who was not too happy about that although it's really Craig's call, isn't it, or I guess it is, or whatever.

Carolyn

[darthslater]

Carolyn, I understand about segerating lines and stabilization.
My point is, the longer someone holds on to something, the older the subject. I see no harm in distributing to people that have the capabillities to know the differencs at F5. And as bad as this sounds, I have heard many that only planted a couple plants, how do you figure that is showing all the genetic expressions?
I grew One for keith and planted 100...holy crap!! You should have seen the stuff, some is posted in The Tomato Show and The Breeders Thread, and I am not done with this one yet nor will be in the next 5 years, you know this is a numbers game. Many working on that project just dont have the facillites to do it. Granted, not all, but alot. Iwas very interested in these and just got tired of waiting.

Thats all I am saying.

Darth

[PVP]

Darth, I agree with both you and Carolyn on this. I happened onto some Dwarf Project seeds for more than one "variety."

In one case, the seeds were F4 green when ripe, and when I planted several of them, I got PL rugose and RL rugose, with all plants yielding green when ripe, but some with a pink blush and others without. That particular line within the Dwarf Project itself, at F8 as grown by authorized members (not by me), now has yellow, bicolor, green when ripe, RLs and PLs in assumed states of stability. Obviously, that line was still really segregating at F4.

Another line I had seeds for was supposed to be orange, but when I grew it, I got reds and yellows. I think those were F3s or F4s too. Can't remember exactly.

As to contacting Craig, etc., I just assume he would say the same thing as was told me by those whom I got seeds from in the first place ... don't distribute ... wait until Craig and Patrina distribute their authorized releases, whenever that may be. I will honor this simply because I remember what happened when I got OSU Blue seeds from Bindweed Beth, and subsequently got a request from Jim Myers to please not distribute any more until he released the stable lines.

However, I still have no reservations about using any of the germplasm to make crosses and pursue my own program simply because I haven't seen the same restraint exercized by persons involved in their own breeding programs. Seems they feel free to use whatever germplasm comes to their hands, and I feel the same unless I sign a use agreement to get the germplasm in the first place. Just sayin' ...

Any thoughts?